Level up

>> Anouk: Welcome to fusion talk with anouk and steve. Wasn't it brilliant in Vienna?

>> Steve: What was brilliant? Our session. Yes.

>> Anouk: The whole event. The whole event. So, um, because there's a bit of a link with what we're planning on doing today, um, with Vienna. We met some great people. It was PowerApps and AI or something. It was their user group, wasn't it?

>> Steve: Yeah, it was a power platform. Boot camp.

>> Anouk: Boot camp. That was it. Yes. Probably wasn't much of a boot camp, but it was a good title.

>> Steve: Yes. Um, but there were series going on all over in Europe, so they had the same title, same day, but in different kind of places.

>> Anouk: Yeah.

>> Steve: So it was a little bit more than just, uh.

>> Anouk: So we got. We got asked to do our session on Kickstarting your governance. 10 tips and tricks to kick start your governance.

>> Steve: Yes.

>> Anouk: Um, it's quite funny. We have an opening slide where we're kickstarting a bike in a pair of

>> Steve: Christian Louboutin high heels.

>> Anouk: So the whole picture's got this wonderful red sole of this shoe and somebody came to us and went, why the motorbike? That's funny. So, Marcus, I think you now know that it's really about, yeah, the lady in heels here kickstarting her motorbike. But that was fine. That was good. But that one session went quite well. It had a good turnout and, uh, a good bunch of questions at the end of it.

>> Steve: It was fun doing. It was a great fun doing. So I, um, was happy with it.

>> Anouk: It was. We didn't. We weren't entirely certain we ended up getting there. So we, we were in Vienna. We did an overnight train. It was just an adventure, um, to get over there. And then, um, uh, 20 centimetres of snow fell overnight. Um, and so we had a really exciting taxi drive. This guy was really enjoying himself. A nice big Mercedes sliding around the corner.

>> Steve: But he was controlling the car very well.

>> Anouk: I think the car more or less controls himself. Those, uh, the modern Mercedes do very well. But it was fun. Exciting. But. Yes. On 21st floor or something. 41st floor.

>> Steve: 41.

>> Anouk: 41st floor for the PWC Centre. Thank you, guys. It was a great venue. It was good. It was very, very good. Um. Yes. What was the best thing you heard for the day? Me,

>> Steve: I heard a lot of good stuff, actually. Uh, people talking and, uh, having great ideas. So.

>> Anouk: Yeah, that was interesting. It was part of, uh, a user group that already meets out there with a number of virtual meetups. And this was their, their physical event. So it's very well done. So organisers thank you very, very much. Food was very delicate, very interesting. Big open sandwiches with strange stuff on them. But that was uh, pretty cool. Vienna is an amazing city. Not sure it's my vibe, but it was.

>> Steve: Yeah, yeah. But it was great fun, um, to walk around there and to see even it was snowing, snow sliding off the roof.

>> Anouk: So you're walking through the city. That's cool. So, yeah. So welcome to Fusion Talk. What want to do is link Vienna to the AI conference in May a little bit. Is it, is it an AI one

>> Steve: in May in Norwich, east of England. Power platform conference.

>> Anouk: Power platform again. They bloody get everywhere these power platform things.

>> Steve: That is what you do when you do a power platform session.

>> Anouk: That is true. I suppose that is true. Um, and uh, you're doing a workshop there.

>> Steve: Yes, I am. Uh, together with Sandra and Marcus. We are going to do a full day workshop. Something new. Um, I'm guessing all the three of us will learn from each other as well, which is going to be great fun.

>> Anouk: That's cool. And it touches a little bit on adoption.

>> Steve: Yes, it touch on um, adoption, uh, I think quite a lot.

>> Anouk: Yeah. Okay, we'll come to that in a minute then. Um, and also we've been working on and adoption seems to have reared its head, uh, a little while just recently. Um, and so that was that. And then it all came together because Sandra's session, uh, in Vienna was about, um, using game theory for adoption, which I kind of agreed with. Don't get me wrong, Sandra. It was a great presentation. I enjoyed it. Um, but I'm an old soul who does not do much gaming. Um, and you know, yeah, when I asked, said what about? She went yeah, but ask the gamers. Um, but um, not everybody is a gamer.

>> Steve: I'm not a gamer neither. But I do understand what a gamer. No.

>> Anouk: 8,400 points on a game that I showed you about last week just because,

>> Steve: because I was waiting at some place. What else do you need to do when you don't have Internet income to

>> Anouk: anything to be competitive? Well, you can play the game, but you then don't need to share the high score with you would do the same. Actually, the answer is that's yes, I would. I would. But it, but it did bring uh, some thinking towards whether gamification, uh, uh, is a really, really good adoption tool. I can see the value of it, don't get me wrong. Um, and I'm not being cynical about it. I'm assessing it because uh, and it's part of what I would offer um, and I also believe that uh, there are simple ways of using gaming or competitiveness to do it. So that's where we basically want to go to today.

>> Steve: I think, yes, talk a little bit about gamification and what it can mean but also uh, some pitfalls because not everybody will like the fact that you do adoption based on gamification.

>> Anouk: Now I agree entirely. Um, and I think uh, even though I'm not a big game player, um, I do like the challenges of a bigger thing. So I can quote some examples of that as well. Um, but it was interesting so you came up with a few thoughts and questions. We can quote some examples about what we are doing and the way we present adoption and different ways of changing habits and stuff. So yeah, so that's where we go a nice light hearted to talk about gamification for adoption.

>> Steve: I think the first point, uh, when you said gamification for adoption is the value of it and I do understand value of it and I and aware of what it will bring and give people. But the value will be decided based on the audience you are doing your adoption for.

>> Anouk: Uh, no, no, I get that. I think that is, that is really important. Um, but I do wonder. So what you're saying is really where I'm thinking as well that some people are just not going to go for gamification and therefore it's got no value to them and therefore they're always going to fall behind. Um, and I suppose the counter argument to that is but even if you do lunch and learn sessions, not everybody will turn up. Even if you do video learning and training courses, not everybody will turn up.

>> Steve: True.

>> Anouk: Uh, so in some respects that I do see that. Um, but if somebody does want to learn and they're not a gamer, then the value may not actually be there. But let me ask you a question. Do you think that everybody is competitive in some level or another? It's a good question, isn't it?

>> Steve: It's a very good question.

>> Anouk: Maybe Sandra's hit on a secret that we just don't understand.

>> Steve: And I would say yes. Yeah, um, everybody likes being better in something than somebody else or winning something or yeah, things like that.

>> Anouk: Uh, I think it is. That's true. I've been going through with my team, um, their annual reviews and everything else for their bonuses and things. Um, and of course that some people are constantly driving themselves forward and other people are just content to be where they are and what they're doing. Those that drive themselves forward are competitive by nature. Um, and then there's groups of people that just want to improve themselves. What they did last year to what they did this year. Um, and then there are some people that are just content doing whatever they've been told to do one day to the next. Ah. So audiences are different, but I think that it's about where they're competitive. So, um, I spoke to one of my guys today, uh, and he's, he's a difficult guy to try and work out whether he's going to drive himself forward and change because he's really content doing what he's doing. But he loves the challenges that that brings. So even though he's not personally driving himself, what drives him is the problems that he has to resolve. Again, it's a form of competitiveness and

>> Steve: he is happy to be able to resolve those kind of issues and it gives him a good feeling and makes him feel proud about himself. So everybody has that in them in some kind of way.

>> Anouk: Yeah, I, uh, do get that. So let's try and think about this. What do we actually mean then by gamification? It's a modern term, but does it actually what it means? How can we define it in business terms?

>> Steve: Well, uh, I do like the way Sandra and, uh, her, uh, co worker were defining it, that they referred it to Duolingo, the language learning app, which

>> Anouk: I have never, ever used one iota as, you know, single man. Maybe I should try it.

>> Steve: Maybe you should try it. And then you can learn Dutch finally, after so many years.

>> Anouk: Maybe I'll put it on the list.

>> Steve: So, um, everybody that knows Duolingo, it's an app and you have very short courses that you can follow. It's two or three minutes every single day and you get rewards. If you come back every single day and get rewards, and then, uh, you get some small batches and all of that.

>> Anouk: What kind of rewards do you get? Those kind of rewards? Just somebody doesn't jump out the phone and give you a kiss on the cheek?

>> Steve: No, no, it's just rewards in the app.

>> Anouk: And I don't really get.

>> Steve: And then you get badges and badges I don't get. No, I, I do understand it.

>> Anouk: Do I not get it? It's a great question. I mean, I'm sitting there being. But, uh, maybe I do.

>> Steve: Maybe it's because, just because you're becoming an old man that you don't understand it.

>> Anouk: Oh, I, I, I am involved in a game every co op, which is around trying to train people on phishing emails.

>> Steve: Yeah.

>> Anouk: Um, and I have to say it's very Good. Um, but the most emotional time is when you open a freaking email and click on a link that you did not realise was a phishing email.

>> Steve: Yeah.

>> Anouk: From the, the training. Oh, God, I'm better than this. You know, I should not have to do this. So blah, blah, blah. That's, that is a really strong one. But the rest of them, um, that you can see them coming a mile off. Uh, and we do get some apparently going different levels, but I kind of get fed up of it because I'm hooked. I'm in the top 12% of the whole company. All right. In terms of the speed of response and in terms of really working out, that is, ah, an email. Uh, and also. But it does a number of things. It actually makes you watch your email more because if you miss one of the test phishing emails, it goes against you. Um, but there are also times when you're busy but you don't want to go anywhere near it. And that's sort of.

>> Steve: Yes. Uh, but that is when it depends on time. And, um, you, they want to measure how fast you react to those kind of things. And to be honest, I don't monitor my email the entire day my mailbox is open. But I can. When I'm focused on something, I don't have to see it coming when an email arrives or anything else.

>> Anouk: I guess they're trying to develop habits.

>> Steve: Yeah.

>> Anouk: So in this case, hey, cheque these five things before you open an email from somebody you don't know. Uh, and I kind of get it and I think that's why I think I know this stuff. And then when I do click on a blooming link that says gotcha, I jump up and down in the office swearing and everybody looks at me and goes, okay. You say no.

>> Steve: Yeah, but I think that's the same thing with the gamification we saw that they were talking about. It's a habit of opening an app for five minutes every single day and to learn something or to.

>> Anouk: It was interesting. Part of the attributes was to set up a routine.

>> Steve: Yeah, yeah. Um, and I think that's missing, uh, still for me, about how do you set up that routine for people?

>> Anouk: Because I hate routine every bit.

>> Steve: Everybody is different. Yes, I know. If they would say to you, you need to go every morning at 9 o', clock, you need to open the app and you need to play for five minutes, you will maybe do it two to three days on a row and then you will say, fuck off, I don't do this anymore.

>> Anouk: Yes. I think that would be Me. So how do you deal with people like me?

>> Steve: That's a very good question.

>> Anouk: Because now I am not being trained on change. Maybe I, ah, don't need it though. I'm not being facetious or cocky. Maybe with my kind of brain that doesn't do habits, picking things up and changing is actually easier for me than it might be for somebody else. Maybe, maybe psychologists in the house. We need a bit of psychology here.

>> Steve: But I'm also thinking, um, you drive yourself forward to learn new things.

>> Anouk: That is true.

>> Steve: And with the gamification in adoption, it's that you need to drive other people to learn those kind of things to be better at it. And if they don't have to drive to keep on learning like you and I have, it will be more difficult, I'm guessing. I'm not sure.

>> Anouk: I think you might be right. I think there might be something in that, um, uh, one way or another. Um, I mean within it especially. We're also better at jumping from one application to another.

>> Steve: Yep.

>> Anouk: Uh, and knowing where we're at. So I get it. You're looking at the email, the message I've just received, aren't you?

>> Steve: Yes.

>> Anouk: I was gonna wait patiently till we finished.

>> Steve: I was listening to you as well.

>> Anouk: Yeah. Oh, yes, of course. The multi. The ability for women to multi task. Yes, yes. Even though I know you're not focused on me at that time because you're looking at your phone. How am I supposed to know that you're listening to me?

>> Steve: Ask me a question and let you know you're Jacob?

>> Anouk: I forgot by now I had no idea what I was talking to about. Um, so is gamification the only way to do adoption?

>> Steve: Um, no, no, it's one of the many ways you can do adoption.

>> Anouk: Many ways. I, Yeah, I mentioned 10. It's okay, that was a turn of phrase.

>> Steve: I'm not going to go for 10. But there are multiple ways you can do adoption.

>> Anouk: Have you ever seen the clip? I know you won't because you don't do movies, but there's a beautiful Steve Martin movie called Roxanne and it's based upon the French storey about the guy with a long nose. Okay, you don't know that either, Pinocchio. No, but that's also based on this very old French book. And so Steve Martin is a guy in a small village America, and he's got a very long nose. And it's very funny, but somebody said, oy, long nose. Da da da da da. In the middle of a bar. He went, is that all you can come up with, and I can give you 10 better insults for a guy with a long nose. And Steve Martin is just amazingly funny, but then he went through 10, uh, insults for a long nose. I must dig it out one day. And, uh, we'll watch or I'll show you the clip or send you the clip. Very clever. But, uh, it does take a certain mentality to be able to do that.

>> Steve: Yes. But, um, if you go back to adoption, you have been doing adoption so many years or supported adoption in companies, have you ever used gamification for it?

>> Anouk: Yes.

>> Steve: Did you succeed in.

>> Anouk: Was a long time ago, actually. It was really, really, If I'm honest, yes. Was it 100 great? No. But then again, is any adoption programme gonna hit 100%?

>> Steve: No,

>> Anouk: I, I think gamification for me is more complicated than just one word called gamification. All right? It's, it's really about what it's supposed to, to do. Is it supposed to change habits? Is it supposed to change. Teach you something? Is it supposed to just let you do something regularly? So like you talked about the app, all of the above. Uh, I, I don't know.

>> Steve: Or uh, just inform you.

>> Anouk: For example, I, I've got a, I've got a meeting next week, uh, for a programme of change and training. Okay. For, for an organisation. I'm not going to go into the details of what it actually is. Um, but, uh, I kind of got to work out what I'm going to do and I will place on the table three or four options, um, as to what it is that working out. But in my mind the gamification one is not going to blow thousands and thousands of euros developing an app on a telephone. It's going to maybe give people six or eight short videos to watch. So the email will go out, we'll know what time the email went, we'll know what time they started doing the video, we'll know how far they've got through the video. We'll allocate people points and we'll create a table because it's relatively simple and in my mind what I'm doing there is, I'm encouraging people to watch the videos. That's what the change programme is. Uh, maybe answer a few questions at the end of it, uh, and away you go. So I don't think gamification needs to be complex. It needs to suit the audience. And in this case the audience are people that are hands on manual, uh, kind of, you know, workers, people that are answering phone calls, uh, on service Desks, that kind of stuff.

>> Steve: Yep.

>> Anouk: And some of those ways they're making those calls are going to change and receiving those calls are going to change. Um, so to be honest, that's what I would think about gamification. If I was thinking about um, some learning videos, then the learning videos would be 20 minutes long each that would go through how to this and how to that and how to the other. You came up with one as well that you said was really very what you needed to do because of where we're at. Do you call it something else other than the IKEA adoption method?

>> Steve: No, it's something I, I'm doing an adoption triad also with a customer and it's are all factory workers. Yeah, blue collar factory workers. And they needed to have an easy way of understanding why the changes there and what the impact is for them. So after talking to people, um, we said why don't we make uh, short steps IKEA manual wise with pictures and step one, step two, step three, that they understand what they need to do if they want to save a number or something like that.

>> Anouk: So just like how to build a chair to go under a table from ikea.

>> Steve: Yeah.

>> Anouk: Eight sides of a document which is just full of drawings and diagrams.

>> Steve: Yes.

>> Anouk: Screenshots. Click here, click there. Okay, cool. How do you get people to read them?

>> Steve: They will be placed, um, on desks. No, they don't have desks. They are really working the production line. So posters, uh, posters on the digital screens, uh, in the lunch area.

>> Anouk: Nice idea.

>> Steve: So that's what they are doing. That's what we are doing there.

>> Anouk: I like that idea. I'm going to steal it.

>> Steve: You're welcome.

>> Anouk: I mean we also did one when we did a project together a few years ago. And the idea, this was really a cultural change, so a change of how to work in the M365 environment, how to store content in libraries, um, but not how so necessarily. It's why you should store content in libraries and you know, the benefits and value that it will get. Um, and we did that in a comic format which I've done two or three times now and that works quite well. Uh, but again it has to be the culture of the organisation, um, which is really part of the process, is part of what's important.

>> Steve: That's what we discussed earlier today as well. Um, I have a company where I'm doing some work for and they need to have that culture change because they are used to folders and syncing uh, document libraries to their OneDrive and working from in their File Explorer Instead of in SharePoint or in Teams, and they are complaining. So I need to find something that they understand why they need to work differently.

>> Anouk: Yeah, I understand.

>> Steve: So maybe in that maybe there can be. This can be a good way of working.

>> Anouk: Yes. No, I think so. So how deep do you think you would take a gamification programme?

>> Steve: That's a good question. And I don't know, to be honest. I never made a gamification programme. So for the workshop that I'm doing, that will be the first time that I'm doing this, really. Um, but that's fine because I do understand it. But how deep you need to take it, I don't know. I think it depends on the question the customer has, where the adoption needs to go, if this is how they need to change or why they need to change or a culture change in the organisation. I think that there are three different kind of things in which kind of level you need to have it on the deep depth of it.

>> Anouk: I think any choice of adoption is really about the existing culture of the company.

>> Steve: Yeah.

>> Anouk: You know, what it is that they're used to seeing. Um, if most of the existing information is sent out via the intranet, then being able to create content for a screen and a digital platform, um, is easier. And especially if you think about gamification.

>> Steve: Yeah.

>> Anouk: You know, uh, I mean, think like Google. Yeah. The Google icons is obviously been quite a lot for the Winter Olympics this week and the last few weeks. Dougals. Google's. What do they call them? Google?

>> Steve: No idea.

>> Anouk: No, there's a special term for this. There's a website you can go and go, historically, look at all the ones they've done within Google. Um, but a lot of people really get addicted to them. They go onto Google every morning and find out what Google's done today, you know, and what kind of information it is. And that is a gamification in its own right, in that every day somebody has something new to do and you've managed to entice them enough that they're always going to keep on top of it. Except eventually I got fed up of it and I haven't looked at them for ages.

>> Steve: Neither do I. But, um, it's a nice way of getting people there and bringing them back to your product.

>> Anouk: Yeah, yeah. So I think gamification can be different words. I mean, the whole point of your workshop, uh, and what's where Sandra's going from is she knows both what can be done within a gamification process.

>> Steve: Yeah.

>> Anouk: But she Also knows which ones will add the best value.

>> Steve: Yes. So that's another thing for me. When, um. Do you know when your gamification adoption process was successful? Is it when, by example, 60% of the people are doing the change and accept it, or only when 80% are doing it? Or this? There is no percentage. What is it?

>> Anouk: Well, I mean, it's the same with any change. You have to find a way of measuring it and you have to set your target.

>> Steve: Yeah.

>> Anouk: Um, and then you've got to kind of work it. So if it's 100% change, you can't just do it with gamification because 40% of the company or organisation just won't be interested. So they're going to need to have videos that they get to see, uh, links in their email, maybe posters on the wall. Especially if you've got a mixture of different levels of people. So office workers and production teams, they'll all need something different.

>> Steve: Yep.

>> Anouk: And then the platform that you deliver it over. So an adoption programme has to be kind of encompassing. So the first thing we, ah, talked about it right at the beginning. The first thing is to understand the audience and the people that will be on the receiving end of the change.

>> Steve: Yes, I know. A few years ago with one of the customers I was working, they were launching their new intranet and they never had an intranet before, so it was completely new for that organisation.

>> Anouk: They weren't launching a new Internet and they were introducing a new way of working.

>> Steve: Yes. And, uh, the adoption thread project there was quite fun to do because the chocolate beans that you give here in Belgium by birds.

>> Anouk: Oh, yes, yes, yes.

>> Steve: They made a package of the bird of the Internet. They had an icon specially designed for their Internet that was all over the place. Um, they had posters all over with different codes and different questions and QR codes bringing people to the right places directly. So they spent a lot of time on it and money, uh, but it really was a good, uh, value for them.

>> Anouk: I've done a similar thing for an intranet, oh, God knows how many years ago. And basically we had a jigsaw puzzle made that was giant. Each piece of the jigsaw puzzle was an A5 sheet of paper and we basically put the first six pieces in place and then we put a new piece in every day. So every time somebody came in to work in the morning they saw, ah, a new piece. Um, and then somebody was allowed to add a piece with some kind of competition. Can't remember how we did that. It wasn't done. By email. But I can't remember or not. Yes, but there they were basically allowed to choose a piece and put it into place. And effectively it took them four or five days, of course, to get to the point where people realised what was happening. But it was pretty cool.

>> Steve: Yes.

>> Anouk: Proximus, when M365 came in place, they used to run, uh, for three weeks, one day a week, all their offices. On the way in, there was teams of people with balloons and freebies and instructions and gifts and, um, cards for answering questions. So there are a number of ways of getting the message across. You just got to work out what the culture of your organisation is and

>> Steve: the audience and what will work for people.

>> Anouk: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's the key. You know, there's no point in, uh, a brewery giving everybody a glass of wine because it's beer that they're into. Beer is what they do and that will not work.

>> Steve: Maybe when it's wine based on the beer, then you can try it, but maybe.

>> Anouk: I was at Heineken for many years and they used to do desk drops, so they had their security team putting stuff on everybody's desk overnight, bottle of beer with. With a message, read around it with a special kind of label on it. Um, and so, yeah, they didn't have a no drinking policy.

>> Steve: Yes.

>> Anouk: But, uh. All right. Anyway, I don't know where the answer is with this gamification. I think it's an. For me, I think it's an option, not mandatory choice.

>> Steve: No, it needs to be an option. And if a company wants, and if it fits in the culture of a company, then it will work. But if it doesn't fit the culture, I'm, um, guessing it won't work that well.

>> Anouk: No, that is. That is true. I mean, this little programme I've got next week, the first thing that I need to do is to talk to six to eight people and find out, you know, is it a complicated change? Do you understand where we're doing, why we're doing it, what we're doing? And if we can get some positive answers, then we'll have one particular kind of programme designed and if not, we'll do something else.

>> Steve: Yeah. So what if. What if they choose gamification but their audience are not gamers?

>> Anouk: Who would choose it?

>> Steve: I'm guessing probably a company, an organisation. Yeah, stakeholders in the organisation.

>> Anouk: Uh, stakeholders. And they choose gamification because they think it will work.

>> Steve: Yeah.

>> Anouk: Then I suggest that my advice would be, well, before we confirm, let's go test it and make sure that it's what people want to do. Do people have quick responses to emails? Do people answer phones quickly? Those are the kind of stats you can get from the systems. And if they are tied into online stuff, into, you know, maybe it's right if everybody's seven days behind on emails, the gamification is not going to work.

>> Steve: Yep.

>> Anouk: If the company is a process driven company. So everything is busy because they're always going on to the next bit. I don't think it would work. Yeah, I don't think it would work. But again it's difficult to understand the culture unless you're actually part of it.

>> Steve: True.

>> Anouk: Um, but I think within the, with the right three to six questions potentially, um, you would be able to kind of come up with a level of culture and see what happens and then somehow gauge on it. But that's the same for anything, even if I, I can't afford gamification. Okay, so what are you gonna do? Well, we're gonna do a poster campaign and we're going to do some email drops in terms of newsletters and we're going to do coffee drop ins every Thursday afternoon for the next four weeks. Like uh, you've still got the same question to ask.

>> Steve: Yeah.

>> Anouk: Is Thursday afternoon the right time? Will coffee drip? Why do people, uh, no. Do they all work and wait around the coffee machine? Um, I have no idea what word I was trying to think of because it doesn't really matter. But um, but do they all. There's the word again, that won't come to me. Um, but do they basically all wait in one place? You know, do they sit in the canteen? Do they. So then you can use those locations and places based upon who they are. Um, do they read the homepage on the SharePoint site or the intranet? Don't know. We'll go find out. Somebody will know how many people hit that page.

>> Steve: Yep.

>> Anouk: And then you can just make the choice for the best method of communication.

>> Steve: So it's actually all based on culture.

>> Anouk: Company and audience keep coming back to it, isn't it? Knowing what your organisation needs, you can't do gamification potentially for an organisation that's running production lines, but you could do it if everybody's on the road servicing people's equipment, mobiles, devices, whatever it is, then people will stop for coffee and potentially you could work it in there. So it might work. Uh, but you got to look at it. But all adoption programmes in my opinion need to be assessed for uh, uh, ability to deliver.

>> Steve: For what else would you use gamification.

>> Anouk: Don't know processes, but that would be adoption and change as well. So keeping, uh, the kids quiet when I want to go to the pub.

>> Steve: Um, the workshop that Sandra and Marcus and I are going to do is about an onboarding process in an organisation.

>> Anouk: Okay. I'm trying to work out why you would have an adoption programme for onboarding people?

>> Steve: No, gamification for onboarding people. Communications Gamification for onboarding people.

>> Anouk: Yes. Now that makes sense. Uh, that kind of stuff I have seen before and I think that works.

>> Steve: So now you are distracted by all of the messages.

>> Anouk: You're distracted by me trying to work out why my phone keeps vibrating in case there's something important, but it's not, so I will ignore it. Ah. Ah. That's been approved. Um, so I'm going to reverse the question to you. Um, you asked me how many times I had done gamification. You've talked about onboarding being used for gamification. So what else would you use gamific for? Onboarding is an obvious one and I've seen that kind of stuff happen quite regularly. You do a lot of power apps and stuff. What would you do? Where would you use gamification to entice people in to learn something?

>> Steve: Learning.

>> Anouk: Learning. I just gave you learning.

>> Steve: No, but that was my first thought about, um, like if they need to have so many learning hours a year, some professions need an amount of learning hours every single year. That can be something that is going into gamification as well.

>> Anouk: So continue your professional development. Yeah, it could be, I suppose so. I told you that I have this thing where you get emails and you have to decide whether they're phishing or not. Whenever I identify an email and I click on the icon that said, nah, uh, this is just a Hox hunt. It's not real. You then go to their web page and you have like a micro learning opportunity. So it's a couple of three clicks and then you get a four or five points. I get frustrated because you only get really small number of points and you can just see yourself creeping up to the next level of platinum or gold or whatever. It is frustrating, but I don't know why I do it, but I do it. It's not that I don't know this stuff. I used to teach Security plus courses, so I do understand the types of. But maybe that's it. Maybe I'm. Maybe I'm a secret closet security manager.

>> Steve: You wish.

>> Anouk: My name is Steve Dolby and I'm a security manager. Yeah, we go to my 10 lessons of, uh, sobriety. I'll be it myself. All right, Cool, cool, cool. So do you have any questions that we need to finish off with to bring it all together?

>> Steve: I think we come back to the same conclusion every single time. Audience matters. Your audience is the most important key to make the gamification work. Yes or no?

>> Anouk: You need to test that audience to make sure it's going to work for you somehow measure, I don't know, measure their capability, um, measure their acceptance of sort of gaming, if gaming is the way to go, or e, learning on their mobile phone or just watching videos. Sort of measure what is successful to. So it's not just about the culture, but it's also about, you know, what they understand to be fun within that space.

>> Steve: Yes.

>> Anouk: And then you just need to inject all the learning objectives that you need. Who said this was difficult? People are involved. If people are involved, it is difficult.

>> Steve: Yeah, but every adoption trial project is difficult.

>> Anouk: Yeah, that's true.

>> Steve: So it's just one way off. And I will keep it in mind and I will keep it in my head for other projects coming up, see if it can work or not.

>> Anouk: No, I agree. Um, I mean, listening to Sandra talk about the way that they do their, uh, gamification on their mobile devices, I liked the idea that it was completely isolated from it. I like the idea it was written on top of Power Automate. Um, and so there were a lot of things to learn from it. And it sort of basically got my brain going. Even though initially I was, ah, can't see it working for me, but worked for somebody.

>> Steve: It is cool.

>> Anouk: Cool. Well, unless you got anything else, I think we can call this quits.

>> Steve: I think we can.

>> Anouk: So if they want to see your workshop, it is in May, the 1st of May. 1st of May, at, uh, the East.

>> Steve: East of England Power Platform Conference.

>> Anouk: There we go. East of England Power Platform Conference. We'll both be there.

>> Steve: Yes. Because we do a session the day after.

>> Anouk: We do. Do we have any idea what we're doing the day after?

>> Steve: The same. The, uh, governance there.

>> Anouk: You, uh, better come and have a look at the heels then. And the motorbike.

>> Steve: Yep.

>> Anouk: On our slides. All right, maybe we'll see you then.

>> Steve: Um, or maybe the heels. Unreal.

>> Anouk: It may be real. That is true. When it's not snowing. You would have had your heels.

>> Steve: Yep.

>> Anouk: All right, good. Okay, guys, thank you very much for listening and hope, uh, you've got lots and lots out of it. Uh, it was a fun topic to deal with.

>> Steve: Yeah. Maybe one thing that people can help us with. We are going almost to our 40th recording, so maybe they need to bring the subject to us.

>> Anouk: Uh, I've tried that before, but. Yes. Okay, that's great. So, uh, how do we want it? As a question or a series of questions?

>> Steve: Yes.

>> Anouk: So what question would you use to stimulate conversation? Um, and, uh, ah, a podcast on Fusion Talk, episode number 40. So in the next couple of weeks, we'll be recording that, I suppose. Yes, that will be fun. 40. All right, guys, thanks and bye.

>> Steve: Bye. Bye,

>> Anouk: Sam.